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	<title>Comments on: First True Muscle Car; 1964 Pontiac GTO! So what is the second Muscle Car?</title>
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	<description>The Codex of Fast Cars</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 19:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Juliet "S.D"</title>
		<link>http://www.ultimatemusclecarguide.com/2009/08/first-true-muscle-car-1964-pontiac-gto-so-what-is-the-second-muscle-car/comment-page-1/#comment-651</link>
		<dc:creator>Juliet "S.D"</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 04:43:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;a href="http://www.windowsticker.us"&gt;Buy Me&lt;/a&gt;


First True Muscle Cars (1st) 1964 Pontiac GTO 389 cid or 421 cid, permission from G.M. to allow big car engine over 330 cid limit in an intermediate car. Trial period for the 1964 Pontiac GTO, hopefully they could sell around 5000 units to be successful. Pontiac was outstandingly successful, therefore G.M. allowed other divisions of G.M. to allow 400 cid engines in their intermediate sized cars. (2nd) 1965 Pontiac GTO 389 cid, or optional 421 cid. First published record of term "Super Car" (Muscle Car) for any car in the World, by Roger Huntington. (3rd) Oldsmobile 442, 425 cid, or 400 cid (442= 400 cid, 4 Barrel Carburation, Dual Exhaust) (4th) 1965 Buick GS 401 (400). Car Magazines from the 1990s and before are famous for writng how Buick "SHOEHORNED a 401" in their NEW intermediate car! (5) 1965 Chevrolet Malibu SS 396. Pontiac, Oldsmobile and Buick caught Chevrolet "Napping", and brought out their First True Muscle Cars ( Super Cars ), before Chevrolet!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.windowsticker.us">Buy Me</a></p>
<p>First True Muscle Cars (1st) 1964 Pontiac GTO 389 cid or 421 cid, permission from G.M. to allow big car engine over 330 cid limit in an intermediate car. Trial period for the 1964 Pontiac GTO, hopefully they could sell around 5000 units to be successful. Pontiac was outstandingly successful, therefore G.M. allowed other divisions of G.M. to allow 400 cid engines in their intermediate sized cars. (2nd) 1965 Pontiac GTO 389 cid, or optional 421 cid. First published record of term &#8220;Super Car&#8221; (Muscle Car) for any car in the World, by Roger Huntington. (3rd) Oldsmobile 442, 425 cid, or 400 cid (442= 400 cid, 4 Barrel Carburation, Dual Exhaust) (4th) 1965 Buick GS 401 (400). Car Magazines from the 1990s and before are famous for writng how Buick &#8220;SHOEHORNED a 401&#8243; in their NEW intermediate car! (5) 1965 Chevrolet Malibu SS 396. Pontiac, Oldsmobile and Buick caught Chevrolet &#8220;Napping&#8221;, and brought out their First True Muscle Cars ( Super Cars ), before Chevrolet!</p>
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		<title>By: Spinner...428</title>
		<link>http://www.ultimatemusclecarguide.com/2009/08/first-true-muscle-car-1964-pontiac-gto-so-what-is-the-second-muscle-car/comment-page-1/#comment-650</link>
		<dc:creator>Spinner...428</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 09:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;a href="http://www.classiccarinsurances.com"&gt;Classic Car Guy&lt;/a&gt;


This question is so easy its already been answered...

FORD saw the changes coming and made the call in the Year change of the 64 Mustang... Pulling the 260 V8 and replacing it with the 289 and was so great on ther part is known as the 64 1/2 Mustang the 1st known 1/2 year model .... Next half year model won't not come til 1970 1/2 Trans Am and Z/28

Anyway The ripples can be seen across the Car market Muscle was in go mode.... People will say Mustang wasn't a Muscle car til the GT350 ... they are wrong.... 

Next ..... I can give you 3rd and 4th and 5th But they are not liked by most people  BUT ALL GREAT CARS....

OK OK OK NEXT on the list READ this #3


No one can can say NO to that.... Dates little off. HEMI in a 2930 lb car.

Next #4 
1964 Ford Thunderbolt 427

Then #5 July 1964 .... Shown Sold August 64
Comments: The success of the 1964 Pontiac GTO encouraged Buick to produce a muscle car of their own. General Motors placed a corporate maximum of 400 cubic inches in their intermediates, but Buick just shoehorned their existing 401 cubic inch fullsize car engine into their Skylark to create the Buick Skylark Gran Sport. Called the Wildcat 445 (due to its torque rating), this Buick engine dated back to the 1950s and was known as the "nail head engine" due to the size of its valves. All Skylark Gran Sports, hardtop, pillared coupe, and convertible, received the convertible's beefed up frame and a special suspension. The model was an instant success and almost 16,000 were sold in 1965. Not bad for a first try.

Engines:
401 V8 325 bhp @ 4,400rpm, 445 lb-ft @ 2,800 rpm.

Performance:
401/325bhp: 0-60 in 7.8 sec, 1/4 mile in 16.6 sec @ 86 mph.

I will also note that with so many models adding horsepower to the line up Changes in how the horsepower was made was the Next list.... 
SO the 1965 Z/16 Chevelle would be the biggest change up after the 1st 5.... and was an awsome car.

Skipping to the 1968 GTO starting a Whole New concept of HorsePower to take on Fords 427 SOHC and The Ram Air (with tunnel port heads) Pontiac stayed with the Ram Air and sold them to public... Ram Air II 69 Ram Air III , IV, and Over the counter V (also so for racing with the RA V 303 to 400

Mickey Thompson worked the 428 with Hemi heads some finding there way on to 400's...But never sold by Pontiac.

Happy Trails</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.classiccarinsurances.com">Classic Car Guy</a></p>
<p>This question is so easy its already been answered&#8230;</p>
<p>FORD saw the changes coming and made the call in the Year change of the 64 Mustang&#8230; Pulling the 260 V8 and replacing it with the 289 and was so great on ther part is known as the 64 1/2 Mustang the 1st known 1/2 year model &#8230;. Next half year model won&#8217;t not come til 1970 1/2 Trans Am and Z/28</p>
<p>Anyway The ripples can be seen across the Car market Muscle was in go mode&#8230;. People will say Mustang wasn&#8217;t a Muscle car til the GT350 &#8230; they are wrong&#8230;. </p>
<p>Next &#8230;.. I can give you 3rd and 4th and 5th But they are not liked by most people  BUT ALL GREAT CARS&#8230;.</p>
<p>OK OK OK NEXT on the list READ this #3</p>
<p>No one can can say NO to that&#8230;. Dates little off. HEMI in a 2930 lb car.</p>
<p>Next #4<br />
1964 Ford Thunderbolt 427</p>
<p>Then #5 July 1964 &#8230;. Shown Sold August 64<br />
Comments: The success of the 1964 Pontiac GTO encouraged Buick to produce a muscle car of their own. General Motors placed a corporate maximum of 400 cubic inches in their intermediates, but Buick just shoehorned their existing 401 cubic inch fullsize car engine into their Skylark to create the Buick Skylark Gran Sport. Called the Wildcat 445 (due to its torque rating), this Buick engine dated back to the 1950s and was known as the &#8220;nail head engine&#8221; due to the size of its valves. All Skylark Gran Sports, hardtop, pillared coupe, and convertible, received the convertible&#8217;s beefed up frame and a special suspension. The model was an instant success and almost 16,000 were sold in 1965. Not bad for a first try.</p>
<p>Engines:<br />
401 V8 325 bhp @ 4,400rpm, 445 lb-ft @ 2,800 rpm.</p>
<p>Performance:<br />
401/325bhp: 0-60 in 7.8 sec, 1/4 mile in 16.6 sec @ 86 mph.</p>
<p>I will also note that with so many models adding horsepower to the line up Changes in how the horsepower was made was the Next list&#8230;.<br />
SO the 1965 Z/16 Chevelle would be the biggest change up after the 1st 5&#8230;. and was an awsome car.</p>
<p>Skipping to the 1968 GTO starting a Whole New concept of HorsePower to take on Fords 427 SOHC and The Ram Air (with tunnel port heads) Pontiac stayed with the Ram Air and sold them to public&#8230; Ram Air II 69 Ram Air III , IV, and Over the counter V (also so for racing with the RA V 303 to 400</p>
<p>Mickey Thompson worked the 428 with Hemi heads some finding there way on to 400&#8217;s&#8230;But never sold by Pontiac.</p>
<p>Happy Trails</p>
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		<title>By: inagaddadavida_loca</title>
		<link>http://www.ultimatemusclecarguide.com/2009/08/first-true-muscle-car-1964-pontiac-gto-so-what-is-the-second-muscle-car/comment-page-1/#comment-649</link>
		<dc:creator>inagaddadavida_loca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Sep 2009 07:04:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;a href="http://www.japanesesportscar.net"&gt;nissan fan&lt;/a&gt;


I believe the first musclecar was the GTO. 

Mopar guys will complain that the '62 Max Wedge cars were the same size and were faster, but they were not packaged with the identity the way the GTO was. They'll also claim the C-300 was the first musclecar, but 17 seconds doesn't a musclecar make. 

Mercury was the first car to break the 400hp barrier, but it wasn't a musclecar. And Ford had their 352/360 for NASCAR, but it still wasn't packaged with its own identity . . . plus it was only available with a 3-speed on the column.

However, even though I feel the GTO was the first musclecar, there were musclecars before the GTO!

So, then, what was the second? The GS didn't come out till 1965. The 1964 Chevelle only had 300hp tops, aside of the 365hp 327 that was to come out but didn't. The SS package didn't really come into its own till '66 as it was previously a bucket-and-console package. 

At the Mopar camp, they didn't really have a true packaged musclecar till the '67 GTX and Coronet R/T. A case could be made for the '66 Charger with a Hemi, but that's still a year after the GS, among others. 

Ford didn't have theirs till the '66 Fairlane GT and Cyclone GT.

So where does that leave us? The 1964 Olds 4-4-2. While not the scorcher that the GTO was, it was packaged with an identity that preceded any other me-too answer.

ADDENDUM: 1964 Hemis and Thunderbolts were race cars, not musclecars. A case could be made for the 289/271 in the Fairlane, but it probably even came with a single exhaust, among other things - a great car, but not something that should be in contention as a musclecar. And this includes the Mustang with the same engine, which never had the packaged identity the GTO had.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.japanesesportscar.net">nissan fan</a></p>
<p>I believe the first musclecar was the GTO. </p>
<p>Mopar guys will complain that the &#8216;62 Max Wedge cars were the same size and were faster, but they were not packaged with the identity the way the GTO was. They&#8217;ll also claim the C-300 was the first musclecar, but 17 seconds doesn&#8217;t a musclecar make. </p>
<p>Mercury was the first car to break the 400hp barrier, but it wasn&#8217;t a musclecar. And Ford had their 352/360 for NASCAR, but it still wasn&#8217;t packaged with its own identity . . . plus it was only available with a 3-speed on the column.</p>
<p>However, even though I feel the GTO was the first musclecar, there were musclecars before the GTO!</p>
<p>So, then, what was the second? The GS didn&#8217;t come out till 1965. The 1964 Chevelle only had 300hp tops, aside of the 365hp 327 that was to come out but didn&#8217;t. The SS package didn&#8217;t really come into its own till &#8216;66 as it was previously a bucket-and-console package. </p>
<p>At the Mopar camp, they didn&#8217;t really have a true packaged musclecar till the &#8216;67 GTX and Coronet R/T. A case could be made for the &#8216;66 Charger with a Hemi, but that&#8217;s still a year after the GS, among others. </p>
<p>Ford didn&#8217;t have theirs till the &#8216;66 Fairlane GT and Cyclone GT.</p>
<p>So where does that leave us? The 1964 Olds 4-4-2. While not the scorcher that the GTO was, it was packaged with an identity that preceded any other me-too answer.</p>
<p>ADDENDUM: 1964 Hemis and Thunderbolts were race cars, not musclecars. A case could be made for the 289/271 in the Fairlane, but it probably even came with a single exhaust, among other things - a great car, but not something that should be in contention as a musclecar. And this includes the Mustang with the same engine, which never had the packaged identity the GTO had.</p>
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		<title>By: Firebird</title>
		<link>http://www.ultimatemusclecarguide.com/2009/08/first-true-muscle-car-1964-pontiac-gto-so-what-is-the-second-muscle-car/comment-page-1/#comment-648</link>
		<dc:creator>Firebird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 22:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;a href="http://www.hybridcarreview.org/2009/02/10/the-ford-f-150-xlt-for-1995-improving-on-1994/"&gt;The Hybrid Truck Guy&lt;/a&gt;


I think it's best considered a multi-way tie among the other divisions of GM.  The Buick GS is a good answer, but the 442 was very quick to market also.  442's only had 330 cubic inches in 1964, but you'd have to try pretty hard to argue a 442's not a muscle car.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.hybridcarreview.org/2009/02/10/the-ford-f-150-xlt-for-1995-improving-on-1994/">The Hybrid Truck Guy</a></p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s best considered a multi-way tie among the other divisions of GM.  The Buick GS is a good answer, but the 442 was very quick to market also.  442&#8217;s only had 330 cubic inches in 1964, but you&#8217;d have to try pretty hard to argue a 442&#8217;s not a muscle car.</p>
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		<title>By: Scribepalladin</title>
		<link>http://www.ultimatemusclecarguide.com/2009/08/first-true-muscle-car-1964-pontiac-gto-so-what-is-the-second-muscle-car/comment-page-1/#comment-647</link>
		<dc:creator>Scribepalladin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:38:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;a href="http://www.decodethis.com"&gt;Vehicle History&lt;/a&gt;


The original GTO was quickly followed by its GM stablemates, but some auto historians argue that the title of first muscle car belongs to the 327-cube Rambler Rebel of 1957.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.decodethis.com">Vehicle History</a></p>
<p>The original GTO was quickly followed by its GM stablemates, but some auto historians argue that the title of first muscle car belongs to the 327-cube Rambler Rebel of 1957.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy J</title>
		<link>http://www.ultimatemusclecarguide.com/2009/08/first-true-muscle-car-1964-pontiac-gto-so-what-is-the-second-muscle-car/comment-page-1/#comment-646</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 09:50:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;a href="http://www.hybridcarreview.org/2009/02/10/the-ford-f-150-xlt-for-1995-improving-on-1994/"&gt;The Hybrid Truck Guy&lt;/a&gt;


True mad_mav, but those were all full size cars. GTO was the first muscle car because it was the first large engine in a intermediate body.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.hybridcarreview.org/2009/02/10/the-ford-f-150-xlt-for-1995-improving-on-1994/">The Hybrid Truck Guy</a></p>
<p>True mad_mav, but those were all full size cars. GTO was the first muscle car because it was the first large engine in a intermediate body.</p>
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		<title>By: mad_mav70</title>
		<link>http://www.ultimatemusclecarguide.com/2009/08/first-true-muscle-car-1964-pontiac-gto-so-what-is-the-second-muscle-car/comment-page-1/#comment-645</link>
		<dc:creator>mad_mav70</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 03:38:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;a href="http://www.germansportcar.net"&gt;muscle car&lt;/a&gt;


?? for Pontiac yes, but for the industry no. The 409 Chevy, 392 Hemi, Supercharged T-bird, Studebaker Golden Hawk just to name a few all predated the GTO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.germansportcar.net">muscle car</a></p>
<p>?? for Pontiac yes, but for the industry no. The 409 Chevy, 392 Hemi, Supercharged T-bird, Studebaker Golden Hawk just to name a few all predated the GTO.</p>
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		<title>By: bob the mechanic</title>
		<link>http://www.ultimatemusclecarguide.com/2009/08/first-true-muscle-car-1964-pontiac-gto-so-what-is-the-second-muscle-car/comment-page-1/#comment-644</link>
		<dc:creator>bob the mechanic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:05:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;a href="http://www.truckfacts.net"&gt;Truck Fan&lt;/a&gt;


1964 Buick gran sport with the 401 and 4spd</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.truckfacts.net">Truck Fan</a></p>
<p>1964 Buick gran sport with the 401 and 4spd</p>
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